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Overtaking
So - we have The Scott upon us very shortly, and have just come out of a fantastic Rocky Trail Grand Prix series. There is still the Singletrack Mind series going on.
One thing that is always a bit of a pain is the etiquette of 'Over-taking'.
I have suffered a bit in some races behind slower riders, but probably no more than any other 'Elite' rider. Some recent events where things really got a bit out of hand had me thinking about it.
Yes, we are all in the heat of the moment, under physical and mental pressure - so its hard to expect completely rational decisions and responses, but is the current system or approach to overtaking the right way to thnk about it?
I wrote an article about it, and trust me, not everyone will agree with it. To point is more to stimulate discussion, raise awareness, and recognise that we can ALL think differently about this thorny issue....
Please take a read, share your thoughts - on here, or where-ever (happy to talk at races) - everyone wants there to be less agro, and greater understanding - we're all out there to have fun...
http://www.marathonmtb.com/2013/09/17/overtaking...
p.s. I wanted to call the article "What I could do with 12 inches and 5 seconds", but it got veto'd.....
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Hi there
I like your posts and such on here and am aware that you do lots for mountain biking, but as a fairly non-elite person myself I wasn't heaps impressed with the tone of the article.
So here are some thoughts:
* Why don't you race in the Olympics/National championships if you don't like beginners?
* With only a limited amount of external sponsorships in most events, beginners are paying for the prize money you are aiming for, so be nice to them.
* couldn't you have done some more training in the 15 minutes it took you to the write the article?
* Jason English is really nice and always says hello and thanks when he's passing, why can't you be more like him?
well - other than the vaguely disparaging comments that it might have only taken 15mins to write the article - I like mostly everything you say.
Its not about 'not liking' beginners, my girlfriend - compelete novice - is talking about the 1/2 Fling. I was also a novice once. Its more about an equal level of responsability.
Prize money isnt the reason I race my bike. Nor anyone else actually - really. there is no-where near enough money in Aus MTB to live off it - even if you won everything you could, you might scratch up 20k a year. And that would be a season like no-one has ever put together. To be honest, the beginners are the ones buying the brands that we are trying to promote. Thats the greater reason to 'be nice' - because we represent others, that are making our (Elite) racing lives a little bit easier.
I must be honest, and say that this article wasnt really about 'me' personally, so I am gonna ssume - nicely - that when you refer to 'you' it is a collective 'Elite riders'.
Jason is the gold-standard. He does things - on the bike, and in his personality, that pretty much everyone else can only aspire to. We are very lucky to be racing around, near, or with him.
Lets not forget, MTB racing is pretty much the only competitive sport that you have to ask to overtake someone...
Ants, once again you have written an amazing article.
Being one of the slower riders on track and frequently overtaken, I generally find the elite riders tend to be the ones you don't notice passing you. I have always found the elite riders to be polite and give you plenty of warnings. Quite often as they pass you not only will they say thanks but also give you some words of encouragement like "Doing well". I will always do my best to make sure the faster ride can get through as soon as possible.
Its the wanna be elites that I find are the more aggressive and agro.
But as you pointed out in your article not all tracks have the space for passing. Admittedly there are places on tracks where passing would be impossible due to the location where the track goes through. So maybe some thought in the construction of the track should go towards making places for overtaking more frequent.
Cheers
Evan
Judging from the first comment I probably have the same thoughts as you!
Will read later and have my 2cents worth then.
Here's the comment I posted on Facebook:
I think part of the issue is the people causing most holdups don't read forums like this. The only info they have comes from race briefings, where organisers err on the side of caution, emphasising that you should wait til it's safe before pulling over and letting someone pass. I think all riders should be reminded that it's not a social ride, it's a race, and it's a risky sport. So whilst we shouldn't take stupid risks, we should all respect the fact that it is a race. I was once abused by a rider for passing her in a very shallow, wide water crossing, where passing posed absolutely no risk. She did get lightly sprayed with water, and I think that's what annoyed her. That said, 99% of my interaction with other riders has been polite and friendly - part of the reason I love MTB marathons.
@andrewthommo - one of the great things about our sport is that we race side by side with elite racers, Olympians and world champs - it adds an element of excitement. That's not to say the beginners are less important at all, they are the future of the sport and as you say we all help fund the events. In my experience elite riders recognise and respect this. But at the end of the day we are racing, and we all need to do our best to respect that.
I am not an elite rider. You are. I will do everything in my capacity to let you pass, even if it means stopping somewhere inconvenient and losing my momentum. Elite riders are my inspiration to get faster and I appreciate the 'lesson'.
However I am not a slow rider by any stretch of the imagination. If only slower riders would extend to me the same courtesy I give the experts I would be a happy old man.
Outstanding article.
I don't disagree with anything you say there Ant but it is a tricky one because of the nature of the events where everyone is mixed together. You're obviously coming from the point of view of an elite rider but as someone pointed out it's not the really fast guys that are the issue, it's the guys just a little faster where it get harder.
Your comment about MTB being the only sport where the fast guys need permission to pass resonated for me with my background in motorsports, on motorbikes the passing rider obviously don't have to ask permission but it's their explicit responsibility to ensure it's done safely (most of the time anyway). I've been fortunate enough (and slow enough) to be passed by many of the best in the game and 99% of the time it's safe, educational as well as often quite literally breathtaking. The analogy starts to run out there because a road race circuit is 5m wide so a skilled rider can find a way past a slower rider
I'd vote for MTB riders having the right to pass without permission but an obligation to do so safely and with as much consideration as possible. Yes that has the potential so make an event a bit more uncomfortable for some riders, particularly first-timers, but Communication protocols as Ant suggests will help that to no end to make that manageable. As mentioned it is a race after all
You guys that know me at races I usually follow the last rider out on the first lap , then during the course of the day I will be out there doing marshall laps & there are times when I'm riding to my limits as well & that is in my capabilities I let the likes of Anthony , Gazza, Steve and any other nobmobber overtake me . Some ppl have more stamina in there bodies than me but there are times when I been out there too and riders aren't letting me pass as well , especially if I hear of a rider down I need too get too quick ....my 2 cents worth from a track marshall and riders point of view ..
I really liked your article and I totally understand where you are coming from. As a novice myself who has only entered a few races, I personally would not hesitate to move over ASAP for a faster rider. However, you will always have a number of inconsiderate novices or slower riders racing, just like there is always rude and arrogant elite riders who think they are too good to be sharing a track with novices.
I don't think you can totally eliminate it, but an effort from both parties may help to reduce it. You are in a race and totally exhausted and getting a 'Thanks mate' out when someone lets you pass may seem like an effort but it may also leave a good impression on that novice, he will feel appreciated and will most likely do the right thing when the next rider wants to pass. There is a bit of an us versus them mentality at times. Some elite riders are friendly and will talk to anyone before and after a race, some think they are too good to even acknowledge a novice. This is where the divide may contribute to the problem. Every rider in that race has at some point in time been a novice, we don't become elite riders from the get go. Respect goes both ways, give a little bit to the novices and I think you will find that they will give it back in most cases. Maybe a little bit of 'passing etiquette' promotion from the organisers might help.
In the article you mention that the elite riders can pass on lines that many others cannot even image and be gone in a matter of seconds. As a slightly above average rider I agree, and all of the people passing me are fast and experienced. But how do the slowest riders on course know if the person coming up behind them is an elite rider or just a mid pack rider with average skills?
I have been frustrated racing in a few 7/8hr races in a team when you get stuck behind a masters solo rider going much slower and holding up a big train for a long period of time. I did a quick calculation on the results comparing how many laps they completed and how many more laps the other riders and teams did and they were getting passed on average every 3 minutes so I understand why they don't stop for everyone straight away.
I don't think there are any easy solutions just be polite and communicate clearly. Maybe there should be a time limit, say if a slower rider cannot find a passing spot in 30 seconds they should pull over and stop.
One of the worst things about Scott 24 is starting all of the solo riders on their bikes ahead of the teams doing a Le Mans start. That makes no sense to me at all with the solo riders easing their way into the race ahead of most of the teams best riders smashing out their first lap.
Late in the day of 8 hour at Mt Annanon. A very well known ride from rockstar team started yelling at me from well over 50m from behind.
It was ona bit of track were it was hard to get over. The rider went anyway , forcing me into the the bush. His team was already well in front,and went on to win. His only motavation was to gain the fastest lap time. You can imagine the answer I got from the marshall after reporting him. Bloody knee and broken brake lever. I am a courtesy rider often getting over well before being asked. Like slow riders even elite riders have a few bad apples in there ranks. No slow riders ever think they are bigger than the sport we all love, can some of the elites say the same.?The problem is that event organisers never take any action, weather a slow rider or and elite rider is reported.
Jason English as someone mention is a credit to the sport. I have been passed many times by Jason racing locally in port mac and the hunter valley. Always has words of encouragement.
We aren't racing for sheep stations. We are all out there for the same reason, the love of the sport.I think you are talking about a small minority of slow riders.
I've been involved in many forms of racing, from Snowboardercross to Superkarts, and in any form of racing, no division is more important than another! We all pay entry fees, and have our own Division we want to do well in. So it is the responsibility of the faster racer to get around slower racers safely, as they have the better skills to do this. Sports only grow with newbie's like me getting involved. I did my first Flow Rollercoaster at Stromlo recently, as a newbie, i was more scared of being passed and holding up the Elite racers, than i was of the course, so you fast guys please keep that in mind, and yes there should be more passing areas designed into the tracks. Let's all band together and enjoy this great sport.
So happy not to be an elite rider when I read this sort of thing 20 plus years of mountain biking crap like this makes me puke cheers wazza
I expect that over 80% of the field get passed regularly and over 80% percent of the field also need to pass someone at some stage. The only real difference between an elite rider and a "slow" rider is the number of times they pass versus getting passed.
I have had bad experiences with both fast and slow riders so agree it's not fair to pick on the quick riders. At the recent Mont I was third in line behind a guy who refused to let us past and just said to the very polite girl that it was up to us to get past him and that he didn't need to move over.
Personally I would have found a way past about three hairpin corners earlier than she did. I think its that type of Irresponsible attitude that Ant was having a go at. There were no elite riders held up in my situation, just three teams who were racing, not riding. There should be a process to report the bad slow riders just like there is a process to report the bad quick riders.
Most people do the right thing.
Floydo, I don't claim to be the toughest guy in the world, but I'm no pushover either. I would much rather have a beer with a bloke than a confrontation, but if this bloke you are talking about did that to me and the organisers chose to do nothing about it, I would front the A-Hole straight after the race to have a quiet little word in his ear. This turd is the reason some slower riders don't bother getting out the way.
Its not just Jason English who is the gold standard. The good guys have always been the good guys.
Saul Britton, Aiden Leftman, Craig Gordon... All understood what races like the Scott are about. I always found them courteous and encouraging as the flowed on past.
The question was asked why is the slower rider king? Well it really depends on the event.
Now I am not at the elite level. I go Ok at club level and have been at the pointy end in the team divisions. but here'm my opinion/
If its a OXC style event or something that is kinda graded then it a given that you are racing against riders of similar abilities or at least riders who know they are in for serious racing. Then race on and the onus should be on the slower rider to get out of the way and if 2 riders are kinda equal and going for a podium then a little elbow out and tyre rubbing action is cool so long as it doesn't go too far.
The rules hear are quite specific in that the slower rider must give way as soon as possible. That is not the case in enduro style races which generally give the rider in front right of way but suggest the polite thing to do is to move over as soon as possible.
If it's a bigger marathon or enduro style race where there is an emphasis on participation and you are on track with riders of all levels the it is up to the more experienced and skillful riders to not be arseholes, make sure they are not putting the more timid beginners or even average weekend warriors off the sport altogether.
If the top elite level guys can do it surely it can't be that hard for the minor podium getters and second tier guys
and anyone who calls "race leader" as they scream on up is a dick. Plain and simple.
All that said I have no doubt that some of my overtaking moves could have gone better and there have been times when I should have been more patient
What I try to do as I come up on someone who I can see is not that confident on the bike and I'll have a conversation with them that might go something like. "Track when you get a chance, no hurry but there is a bit of a spot around the next corner where I can fit around on your right if that's Ok with you"
9/10 times that is all good They appreciate you know the trail and have identified a spot they may not have remembered, or known about and may have been too focused on riding to notice when it came up. As I go past I'll say thanks or have a good ride or make a joke.
I'd suggest if you want serious racing with out the slower riders getting in your way XCO events and point to point style racing where you are not constantly lapping "lesser" riders might be more what you need to concentrate on. If you are entering a multi lap enduro you just have to know that at times you are going to be held up and cop it on the chin
I thought the article was fair and considered. At the Mont they seem to take rider courtesy a bit more seriously and I have heard of both unsafe I overtakers and uncooperative slower riders being spoken to.
The only point I take take issue with is your comments concerning when a rider being passed by a train in the "gold standard". Given the rider at the head of the train usually has no idea how many are behind him, it is the rider at the back who can see and who knows. But he will be too far away to be heard - likely much more than 10m.
So I'm not sure it's realistic to expect the passee to pull up to let everybody through. I think instead it is incumbent on the riders behind to accept the door will close and take particular care not to jam the guy being passed into a tree or clip his bars as happened to a good mate earlier this year.
The guy has already let a bunch of you past, you can be pretty sure he'll repeat the favor as soon as he finds another opportunity.
It wasn't such an issue this year as I was much faster but stopping every few minutes to let trains through really messes with your own flow and enjoyment. Given these are commercial events run for profit gained by giving entrants an enjoyable experience I think there needs to b a balance.
This year quite a few guys and gals moved right off the track for me and stopped when they didn't need to. I appreciated their generosity but felt a bit guilty about it
(yes I know it was their choice 
)
Wow @antsonline - ballsy article bound to have lots of opinions.
I can give perspective from a midfielder. Firstly I have always found the top elite guys extremely polite and calm about overtaking. My first ever race was the very first Dirtworks (now Convict 100). It was run as a cloverleaf and as I left the feed zone at the end of my first loop the leaders left it on their second and I was overtaken by Paul Rowney who made an effort to ask me how I was going and gave some words of encouragement. He went on to win. My first race at a circuit was at Awaba in a 4hr and I remember Gordo smashed every team on his own yet each lap said hi, made a comment and waited patiently for me to call him through. I recall another event where Jason English was lapping me and we chatted on a long fire road and he mentioned he'd forgotten to bring a drink this lap so I shared mine, we talked more then he stepped on it...
The level just below them tend to have a lot more anxiety when approaching you and less patience but most are still very polite.
I do find however in every enduro at 20-40km you get the guy who suddenly appears and tries the ridiculous move cause he's in an extreme hurry. Everyone knows him - the one who takes to the deep rough to get past but as he draws alongside you he starts to hit logs and deep leaf litter and it gets really hard to pedal through it but he doesn't want to look like a dick and back off and pull in behind you so his cadence increases as he moves half the forest just to grab that extra spot. He's the guy I see every race and say "hey mate, if you're fighting me for position then you are absolutely a nobody". I then pass him soon after 50km as he's pedaling backwards cause he spent himself doing crazy stuff early.
I recall one Highland Fling maybe 4-5yrs ago when about an hour or so into the race going through some very tight single track Troy Glennan from Rockstar was trying to get past some dude in front of me. Now the Elite's started half hour behind us and we were only just over an hour in and this dude was blocking. Finally we came out onto a fire road and this guy charged ahead then suddenly did a big slide and blocked Troy from passing. He was pissed that Troy had been breathing down his neck trying to find a way around so basically stopped him. The 1.5min lead Troy had built over the other elites dropped to about 30 seconds at that point and he got caught soon after...
I was racing one year at Awaba and heard the leaders coming behind me and took a sneaky look back to see how far off they were. When I looked forward again I was into a tree. Luckily I was tossed so it didn't take my full force but I snapped a BMC FS01 frame in half. Back then they were a $5K frame!
The big lesson I learned from that experience I have passed on to many people I catch in races when I see them looking nervous about getting out of my way I calmly tell them to keep going and wait till there is a safe place to pass. I see it as my responsibility to prevent them from self destructing in font of me.
Lastly @antsonline when you come up behind us bunters and call out and we are silent you need to understand we would like to communicate better but your heart rate is at a level you can be on the gas pedal and still have a chat but ours is at the level we think we are about to die so don't take the lack of response as discourteous. We just cant talk...
interesting subject, I agree with you and do my best to get out of the way and let faster guys through when ever I need to.
One thing that amazes me is the self seeding starts at enduro's.. fair enough to want to have a crack at smashing out a personal best, but when you see some ambitious punters lining up in the first wave of a race that so obviously will be a moving road block for the next 500 or so riders for the next hour or so... now that's something no one really needs nor does anyone seem to actively discourage?
I havent read the article but i will say that i wont race any more due to the attitudes of some.
I raced The Mont many years ago and was pretty disgusted at how some people treat you. It was my first 24 hour race and i was a mess. My abilities on the bike towards the end were severely affected and although i will admit i probably was holding some people up on my last lap, i felt that i was doing my best to let them by.
Just because your a good rider does not mean everyone else is. What may seem safe to you is not always what someone else will consider safe. Just because your in the zone and feeling great does not always mean everyone else is in the zone and feeling great.
Racing is meant for everyone and as a pro/sponsored rider you are the one who should be more understanding of the novices. Cut them some slack and understand that you arent always going to get things go 100% your way
Thanks all - this is a great discussion. From an organisers point of view, I'll try to promote more communication on the track. More is always better.
On reports to organisers - I know I've had a quiet post-race word to both slow riders who are reluctant to move over, and also to faster riders who make unreasonable demands on slower riders. You have to deal with both, but in different ways. With the slower rider it is often an education thing, and with the faster rider sometimes you have to deflate an ego.
Now for my pet hate as a slower rider: Please let me know how many riders are coming past! I'm more than happy to move over, but get a bit pissed when I'm not told about the second rider overtaking and get cleaned up when I move back onto the track.
I never use track or rider coming up, etc, but if its tight ill make some conversation , and if they look average to below average ill say something like " just ride normally in the centre of the track, I can get past when there's a space". Apart from that I've stopped allowing the person who is slower from making the decision. They are more likely to make a bad decision than a good one, and I'm better off looking ahead and when I see an opportunity, just tell them I'm going past on your right, just keep your normal line...
Then I always say thank you, you are doing great, nice bike or something . I'd have to say though, that its heaps easier to pass with loud hubs and more speed, because riders hear you coming and will nearly always make a slight gesture to the side of te track at about the right time. I have seen people stack it trying to pull over without me saying a thing , which is why I try and take control early so it'd predictable.
I don't think I've ever heard someone say its their right to be on track though.
It is a race after all , and it's not a namby pamby sport either - and as per the post above, if I have to pass riding over rocks and logs and taking out a small sapling on the way - I wear the scratches with pride!
Edit, just a final comment- the poor attitude is the one we remember often, try and concentrate on the 200 other people who ask if you want to go past, or pullover without a word, and are happy to be overtaken, and even say sorry when they stuff up a line through rocks, and stop you. The massively large majority of people are great!
I totaly agree with your article, Ant. If I'm being overtaken, I always pull over or stop to the side and let the faster person through, if someone has put in the extra effort to train harder and be faster than me, I reckon their lap times are probably more critical than mine. This is refering to 8hr lap type races not club races, club races are normally plenty of elbow rubbing, gritty racing were the only way the guy behind is coming past is if he works for it, but even then, if it's clear he's faster, then it's only fair to let him by when safe.
The story at the end really annoys me, is this a general thing throughout the clubs now or just a one off?
Edit;- Just read the comment about self seeding. This annoys me too, surely there has to be a way to put people in waves according to previous results and if they don't have previous, they start at the back. If the organisers of races like the Sydney marathon and City to Surf can do it with thousands of entrants, surely it can be done with a few hundred mtb-ers.
Self seeding "surely it can be done with a few hundred mtb-ers". Well how exactly? At club races and 4 hours, we don't have the resources to do much more than ask participants to self seed. If the weather is looking a bit questionable in the days leading up to a race, then riders will not register online - but register on the day. So we don't know who is turning up.
Again, mostly its a small percentage of riders who over estimate their abilities. I don't think its a huge issue. But one organisers should be aware of and mention in race notices and briefings.
As for kids "racing". A small dose of reality is required here please. We are talking Under 10s! The biggest turn off for this age group is being hassled/bumped etc. Let's keep the kids interested as they learn some skills and etiquette. In the next age group up they start getting race technique and some competiveness. The last thing that U10s require is the "football dad/mum" yelling from the sidelines and and spending time on post race analysis. Just let them enjoy at that age please.
I'm a fairly slow rider. I did the Mont this year to tick off the 24 hr race thing, but I've pretty much stopped doing lap races because I don't particularly like the pressure of having faster riders coming up behind me all the time. I try to get out of the way as soon as practical and communicate well, but it's not always easy on tight single track, without blundering off into the scrub and pulling up. That makes it hard to get any rhythm and confidence going when it happens a lot and in turn makes it harder to enjoy the bits of the track where I can get up a bit of speed and fun (and get my money's worth from the entry fees).
My pet hate is when someone tries to sneak past on the back of another rider who you've had the conversation with, without announcing themselves. It's ended badly for a couple of guys, though not deliberately on my part, and has nearly ended badly for me as well.
Track designers could maybe give the issue some more thought. I've noticed some "dual track" sections in Kowen which allow faster riders to get past slower riders on some of the climbs. A few longer "b" lines in places might also provide some more uncontested passing opportunities.
Ray, sorry, I should have made myself clear, I'm not on about the self seeding in club racing. The classes are small and people on the most part know where to put themselves. I'm referring more to the events like the chocfoot and mtbgp 7/8hr events were everyone is registered well before the event.
I take your point with the under 10s 'racing'. I just wouldn't want it to go down the same route as school sports days were there are no winners in events "it's all about the taking part". To a point I agree but surely kids have to learn that not everyone can win and there are in fact some losers, otherwise we bring up a generation of kids that expect everything to fall into their lap and don't realise that some people are on this earth to dig holes and others are here to tell them where to dig;- Oh wait, we already have!
I feel I have gone a bit off topic here, BTT.
How much effort should be put into track design? Some tracks have wider lines, fire road sections, and overtaking isn't too difficult for much of the lap.
Other tracks, such as Awaba, are quite narrow for 95% of the lap. I'm not saying it isn't a great track! But how much attention needs to go into track design?
More 'B' lines perhaps? Slalom sections?
I nearly got cleaned up by the escort vehicle that was travelling just behind the leader in the recent Wollombi Wild
Being the slow guy who is there just for the fun of it, I generally stop if I hear some elites with speed coming from behind me. Never really had a bad experience with the guys hurling around the track super fast. Now, the guys who are probably a bit behind the elites I have had problems with. Last years Scott I was knocked off the track and my bike twice by riders which were attempting an elite style passing on a very narrow bit of the track and didn't have the skills to actually do it. Not surprisingly they didn't come off their bike!
Not really complaining though, I just love doing these rides.
I agree,
I train hard. I podium often in my respective categories.
If anyone comes up behind me I pull over immediately without question. If a rider slowly catches me I ask if they want to pass or are they ok to follow me.
When passing, I call from a distance to give plenty of warning and am super polite with my compliments when I do pass.
BUT,,,, now and again I come across a rider who quite obviously feels like they're going much quicker than they really are They take far too long to pull over and then call you past without moving an inch to the side and expect you to go completely off the track to get past, even if off the track is very dangerous or virtually unridable.
I almost came to fisticuffs last year at the Scott with a rider who refused to pull over on a whole section of singletrack ( I'm talking a few Kms) after asking politely a few times I asked him what his problem was and he started calling me 4 letter words and joining them up with my nationality. If that was a few years ago he'd still be on the hill today!!!
I know it can be frustrating letting so many riders past all the time but hey? Its a race!
Generally everyone is on great form at these races but there's always a few a'holes at all levels in every sport.
I suppose there will always be a little bit of conflict here and there, especially at the bigger events.
Just try and keep cool people. Maybe even have a silent giggle at the idiot who passed you stupidly or wouldn't let you past. They're obviously not having as much fun as you!
This is a bit ignorant of me but you have to see it from everyones perspective, i didnt pay my entry fee to spend the day pulled over on the side of the track to constantly let the faster guys past either. But totally agree you didnt pay your entry fee to be held up by me
Dont get me wrong, i totally understand that what i have said above is wrong, but its how i ended up feeling and is why i will probably never race again. Is it fair of me to clog up the trail, not at all, but on the other hand what do you consider fair for all parties involved? You are the pro rider with all the skills, i am an amateur with minimal skills......
I made every effort i could at that Mont to let the faster guys past me when i felt safe to do so but i was still left feeling like it wasnt enough. It was actually one of the Rockstar guys who pissed me off due to his arrogance.
I think event organisers and track designers need to place more emphasis on making trails used regularly for racing more friendly to all levels of competitors. I also think that maybe they need to start to put a bit of a divide in place somehow to allow those that want to race the ability to race, and those that want to just have fun the ability to have fun.
Self seeding, i have only ever done it at the Careflght ride and have always started at the back of the front pack. Given its all firetrail i dont hold people up but on the other hand given my lack of skills, and the posibility of the person i am overtaking having even less skills, i dont really need to overtake too many people which for me is the safer option.
I actually really like @ido09s's point.
If we all pay the same money, to race, we all have the same right to a race wihout interuption. So - given that, we must expect more of event organisers.
By this, I mean private promoters, not clubs with volunteers - I see them as very distinctly different.
If I am paying a private promoter (who is torn, as they want elite riders there for sponsors, for glamor and attraction, but also who want the other 99% of riders who pay thier bills) I tihnk its reasonable to expect that they dont just pick the easiest option avaiable to them - put everyone on the course at once. One finish time, one start time, pack up, home by tea-time (I know - I am simplifying - but you get my drift).
What if there were seperate start times? Or slightly different loops for teams vs solos? Maybe share the same start finish area, but then split off?
All of this can be done at most venues, but yes, it does require a bit more work.
Shouldnt we expect that of private promotors though? Because racing in its current form hasnt really evolved at all over the years - the ST has incresed with greater trail building knowledge and skill. bikes have improved to be able to handle a broader variety of terrain, yet race formats remain pretty static...
The Scott does this wel to a certain extent - using two loops with shared timing. So it can be done.
OMG you have really opened a can of worms here. LOL
well I've raced here & there. I've always had a great time. Never had any real serious problems....but then I'm not quite in the same league as Gazz, Chitts & Warthog.
First time I raced our team managed a podium at the Scott 2010. Not bad for a Noob. But when the serious fast riders catch up. You can hear them comming. firstly the noise is unmitakanble....and you can hear them especially when they are hammering. Not just the calling out to the riders not too far behind but it like a tremble.
Its not too hard to think a little ahead.
yes the elites are arrogant because they are fast.....but a slow person is just as arrogant going slow & not moving over. I have absolutkley no problem moving over. So many times when some elite comes hammering past at mach 3....majorety of the time, it really appreciated. usullay with some sort of appretiation yelled at me. I'm there to race, have a good time as well. & if I can make someones day....even better.
On the other hand....I remember at the Mont 2012....I was riding behind this guy....the only reason I kept up for most of the lap was because he basically cleared the track for me. He was the most patient rider ive ever come across.
Track...whenever your ready, Its ok. This guy deserved something. I reported him to the host and hope he got some sort of reward for his great sportsman ship.
From my experience, Gordon is an arrogant, only cares about himself not the sport. He is the one who put me into the trees at Mt Annanon, trying for a personnel lap record. I reported him and the marshalls laughted at me. Are they going to disqualify a high profile person and team on the word of an average rider. Yes we paided the same, not sure if gordon paided at all.
But as ants said it needs to be up to the organisers and course marshalls to report any incidents. Not riders. Weather fast or slow. Never ever heard of anyone being disqualified. Once ths happens word will get around do the wrong thing and you are out. This includes not allowing faster riders through, dangerous overtaking etc.
Do the wrong thing on the road you are penalised. People know this, the same should apply.
Reading all these comments brought to mind a few little/funny incidents that don't really contribute to the discussion but might entertain a few.......
1 - at the recent Dargle 12hr; I got lapped by one of the Phantom boys about 2/3rds through the lap (he passed perfectly, calling early and politely) and I sat on him for the remainder of the lap getting a tow. My goal was to clear the last climb every lap (only failed twice due to traffic)...... we got to the climb and young Phantom jumps off and runs up with his bike on his shoulder. I managed to ride and keep pace with him. We catch a bloke on an orange single speed bike slowly pushing his bike up the race line - young Phantom politely calls track; captain single speed looks back and says "you're walking too, you can f'ing wait" - the young bloke simply ran through the scrub and got around him anyway.... I politely call out "rider coming" from about 5m back, he looked at me, stopped where he was and said "it'll only cost you 5 f'ing seconds mate, just walk like the rest of us". I had to stop in shock. We both pushed to the top and I said "can I get around here mate?" his response was "you'll never match my attack along here mate, have a go" - needless to say, I put probably 30 seconds on him in the last 2 or so min......
2 - again at Dargle; I was riding up the slight rise on the wide fireroad type section before the last section of singletrack before the climb - the track is literally 7-8m wide. I passed a bloke (from a pretty well known team actually) at least 2m wide of him and he calls out "you need to call it mate" - I thought he was joking, considering where I was overtaking so I laughed and said "yeah, tough section to pass". He then called out "you f'ing rude prick" - I didn't know what to say so I just kept riding and didn't respond.
3 - Mt Annan 4/7hr; probably the most embarrassing..... I got lapped by Ed McDonald and some other bloke who was leading the teams, then about a minute later Andy Hall started gaining on me. I could see he was chasing Ed hard and I wanted to get out of his way ASAP. I called him past on a kind of dodgy section, moved left off the line, hit some rocks, hit the bunting then a tree and got tangled up. No damage or injury but of course he started stopping to make sure I was OK which probably cost him more than if I just rode the 50m to a better spot.......
It's interesting getting both perspectives in different races; in a teams event I rarely get passed and have to pass quite a few riders - most are pretty good if you're polite and tell them where you can pass. When I ride solo, I often get passed by the faster solo's and many teams - I'll happily get out of the way and rarely hold anyone up at all.
You could always compete in downhill and you rarely have to overtake
I did a club day a few weeks ago where they ran A, B, C & D grade races. The volunteer organisers had recommended grades for each age group however you could race up or down a grade or two if you wanted to. Only entrants in the recommended grade were eligible for the podium for that age group.
When the results came out they used a percentage of winning time formula to combine the results for each age group into a single set of results so while I came 4th in my race I was ranked 8th in my age group as a few guys raced the higher grade.
The key point here is that there were 4 different courses being raced at once for the 4 different categories. The D grade course had the least climbing while C grade had 200m per 5.5k lap. B and A grade had more climbing again and included more technical sections.
So the club had organised different courses for each grade to make the experience better for different levels of rider. It worked pretty well on the day and the common areas generally were fire road or had places to pass. It was just a matter of following the signs and taking the turnoff for my category. There was little congestion on the single track sections as most people were fairly well matched in speed.
So I think I have seen the format that events like the mont and scott should follow. Give the racers a more technical course with a lot of climbing while routing the participation teams away from the main climbs and technical challenges.
Based on my limited experience with that format I think it would make life more enjoyable for most of the participants. I am sure that the Mont guys could pull it off.
This is never going away,You will ALWAYS have faster and slower riders. Race design strategy has definitely got it's place, but overtaking and being overtaken is here to stay,therefore its a change in culture that's needed before this does get a problem.I agree with ants about the pendulum swinging one way to far,if you spend hours/weeks training you want the pay off,but not at the expensive of hurting someone,(if you do, you may aswell go boxing training then go punch a random in the street). If you're deliberately holding someone up then you're a first class balloon,likewise, if you're speeding past and shoving someone off the track then you are worse. However,I also think this is one of the variables in mtb racing, like a stick in the derailleur, a burped tyre that won't seal or a squeaking noise that you have no idea where it's coming from, even though it wasn't there yesterday? passing is a "deal with it issue",but it's how we personally deal with it, that is key.
The rules for passing should read like this-
RULE 1- If you are passing or being passed please don't be a dick.
RULE 2- Any confusion refer to rule 1.
It might seem a bit simple but if we all followed it, guaranteed to work!
Like the Choc Foot races main rules,
NO DICKHEADS!
This is obviously more relevant to the lap based events but it comes up a bit in the marathons and from what I gather was one of the reasons for the course change at CP.
I've had few problems either way. Generally the elites go off first and that's the last you see of them.
I think most of the events have also realised by now that you need to start with a good few km of open trail so the field can sort itself out.
The part of the field I race with it's pretty much just a bit of swapping of positions and the odd faster guy coming through who's trying to catch up after a mechanical. It's competitive but still friendly because I don't think anyone really gives a shit if they lose or gain a couple of places.
I've had the odd 50k backmarker who doesn't want to move but if anything they freak out and try to get out of the way too quick. I don't want you to crash!
The Fling is a bit different and is the only bad experience that's stuck with me. A certain elite who was watching a series title slip away, carrying on with all sorts of yelling and trying to pressure people to move when there really was nowhere to go. Not really sure what he expected in a narrow, rocky, tree lined section of ST, which the tail of the 50k field was already finding tough. And I think all his noise was counter productive because it seemed to be aimed at everyone and no-one all at once. So it wasn't clear if I needed to move, or the guy behind me, or the guy 20m back that he was actually trying to get past, or if everyone in the general vicinity was meant to ride into a rock and kiss his boots on his way past. I was quite happy to see the result didn't go his way at the end.
No problems with any of the other elites (including those who were actually winning the race).
Given I'm new to the racing scene I'm so far quite neutral on this and sympathise with both sides... Yet I make every effort to give way to faster riders when racing no questions asked.
My only gripe being, and it is a big one that sh*ts me no end, is that upon pulling over without delay, my gripe is the 'one percent' of riders who don't pay due acknowledgement and say 'thank you' in response to my demonstration of politeness.
Its inexcusable given 99% of riders do the right thing and say 'thankyou', and yet it reminds me of those drivers of cars who don't wave to say thank you when you let them in or fail to wave thank you when you pull over so they can drive past you in the opposite direction down a narrow street etc,.. RUDE!!
Alas, thankfully these types are a minority.
There have been a few comments about trail design and cutting B lines and dual tracks and extra overtaking areas. All good in theory, hard in practice.
As someone who loves building and maintaining trails I'm always surprised at how few people turn up to dig. "Oh but I'm busy" yeah so am I. "But I needed to train" Yep, me too and if I had more help it would have taken have the time and I would have been able to get on the bike more. Now you are asking for me to double the work load.
B lines are good but the regs have some funny rulings on them. TBH I haven't had a good look at the new regs but the old ones stated a B line should not incur a time penalty. Silly ruling but one that was there. Apparently as a trail builder if I make a B line longer I am encouraging less skilled riders to take on the A line to better their time. Well Der...
Dual tracks. 1 is always quicker and that is the line everyone will take. So Even if you take the other one if you aren't a heap quicker you'll still come out the other side behind.
+ you have to be careful. Build the dual track too close together and you find the the vegetation between them will die off as you are compacting the soil either side and limiting the root system and diverting the natural water drain. Not a good look.
Passing lanes are good but harder to incorporate into trail flow and minimal impact trail design. + for the 364 other days of the year when the trail is not used for a mass event hey tend to over grow again.
All possible but hard to do right. Simplest solution is still for riders (Both passing and getting passed) to be polite, patient and respectful of each other
What flynny said .... So correct
Can totally relate to the trail building dig days .. Oh I'm too busy yet they still find extra hours to ride just no hours to help out ..
Passing being passed all happens just have to deal with it every time it's a way of life and I'm sure everyone's been caught out in some form or another its all round abouts no use bitching about it
For some reason it's the newbies who are most enthusiastic about helping out.
I'm glad to say that today we'll likely have a decent turnout.
There should be no agro at all , you let the person in front know your there , if like me will try and get out of the was asap . Many a time have I fallen off hit a tree trying to give the so called elite riders a clearer path , and many a time has the so called elite rider not even said thanks , maybe I am beneath them . I thought in the old rules , maybe changed , the rider in front was under no obligation to move over , if wrong I apologise .
But yes, this is what this debate is about.
Yes, normally the person in front makes the call but where do you cross the line from them being rude and making the rider behind wait for an unacceptable time?
For XCO and DH the regs stated the slower rider must move out of the way as soon as possible, which is a bit wishy washy, who decides what is as soon as possible?
For mass participation events the rules have always been a little clearer in that it is up to the slower rider to determine when it is safe to do so.
I have seen a some agro on the track with faster riders trying to push past slower riders yet I have never seen those "faster" riders on the podium. The good guys show patience and pass safely and politely. It's the second and third tier wannabes that seem to have the issue yet you never seem to see them at state or national races.
Again if you want to be serious, enter a serious race.
So on this subject.... what's the feeling about a tandem racing the mont?
Love the idea,,,
But get out of the bloody way on the singletrack!
I say do it Nick. Do you think you will be able to engineer suspension into the rear to make it more comfortable for him?